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Author Topic: WOW!!  (Read 898 times)

James Fuller

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WOW!!
« on: June 04, 2020, 07:09:18 AM »

Paul,
  Wow!
May I offer some of my experiences.
I have been down the Windows/Linux road a couple of times and It is the most frustrating of paths. Hundreds if not thousands versions of Linux. I did manage to come up with UbxBasic but the Windows version sucks!! The biggie of course, as you have found out, is a cross platform GUI.

Until yesterday I had settled on using Visual Studio Community 2019 for my coding. I don't use the IDE but I do have it installed. You can get just the build environment here:
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/visual-cpp-build-tools/

To my surprise TDM-GCC had been updated. I need to evaluate this a bit more. It used to be my go to c++ compiler.

With my basic to c/c++ translators all the translated c/c++ code is placed in one file.
Much like FreeBasic only the code used is compiled with VC++. If you #include c/c++ files ALL the code is compiled.

Did you give the NUWEN distro a look?
https://nuwen.net/mingw.html

I am excited for you and will be following closely. My c++ is horrid and I hope to learn more.

James
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James Klutho

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2020, 09:43:29 AM »

Learning C++ is on my bucket list also before I am done with programming.  I have spent most of my programming in basic but basic is at the end of life.  When MS pulled the plug on it in 2000 (or thereabouts) Freebasic and Powerbasic had some popularity filling the vacuum as basic dissipated.  I went over to Java for a time but it's too confining and also spent time being frustrated with Linux due to the lack of consistency of distros.  I agree with the cross platform GUI being a major hurdle.  I like Linux but programming it has not been fun due to the feeling that spending hundreds or thousands of hours learning a mediocre GUI will probably be wasted.  I have invested time in GTK/GDK but don't fell good about it. wxWidgets and FLTK are also substandard compared to the Windows SDK.

One GUI wrapper that has intrigued me is WDL.  Justin Frankel who is known for WinAmp and Reaper is a top shelf programmer and developed WDL for himself.  It is freely available at
           https://www.cockos.com/wdl/

WDL contains a subset of Windows API calls based on GDK among other things - mostly related to audio.  With that said, Reaper (a DAW with windows, Linux, and mac releases) is not known for a stunning GUI.  If I spend time with C++ I will also give WDL a shot so I do something functional in Linux.

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Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2020, 03:06:39 PM »

I have been down the Windows/Linux road a couple of times and It is the most frustrating of paths. Hundreds if not thousands versions of Linux. I did manage to come up with UbxBasic but the Windows version sucks!! The biggie of course, as you have found out, is a cross platform GUI.
Yes, I know what you mean. I've installed/uninstalled Linux so many times that I have lost count. Lol.  My everyday work demands Windows use so I have not yet had any compelling reason to keep working on linux other than out of curiosity and a desire to expand my knowledge base.

Quote
Until yesterday I had settled on using Visual Studio Community 2019 for my coding. I don't use the IDE but I do have it installed. You can get just the build environment here:
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/visual-cpp-build-tools/
I have previously done both myself as well. VS 2017 and VS 2019 (community editions) as well as just installing the Build Tools.
The "problem" I have is that I must use a portable setup because at any given time of the day I could be programming on one of 3 or 4 different computers. Visual Studio is too heavy and is not portable. Visual Studio Code on the other hand is a good fit for me right now.

Quote
To my surprise TDM-GCC had been updated. I need to evaluate this a bit more. It used to be my go to c++ compiler.
I was honestly surprised myself when I saw it. I also used it a few years ago but have been using Wingw-64 as of late.

Quote
With my basic to c/c++ translators all the translated c/c++ code is placed in one file.
Much like FreeBasic only the code used is compiled with VC++. If you #include c/c++ files ALL the code is compiled.
My goal is to learn pure C++. I am hoping to steer clear of BASIC->C or BASIC->C++ type of systems. I want to learn C++, and not yet another Basic language :) :) :)

Quote
Did you give the NUWEN distro a look?
https://nuwen.net/mingw.html
I looked at it today based on your mention of it. Maybe down the road I'll use it as one of my toolchains but for now I want to stick with TDM-GCC-64.

Quote
I am excited for you and will be following closely. My c++ is horrid and I hope to learn more.
Lol, I'm excited as well. I can say that the transition over to C++ syntax has not been as bad as I had expected it to be (so far).


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Paul Squires
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Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2020, 03:19:22 PM »

Learning C++ is on my bucket list also before I am done with programming....
We are a lot alike. I have been meaning to dive into C++ for years. Came very close after the demise of PowerBasic but I eventually gravitated to FreeBasic. Learning FreeBasic, which has a lot of C and C++ characteristics, has actually made my initial foray into C++ a hell of a lot easier.

To be honest, I am not overly concerned about GUI at the moment. I think that was the mistake I made the last time that I tried to learn C++. I wanted to be able to do GUI immediately but that extra layer of confusion (and unstable build tools at the time) was just a recipe of frustration for me. That was probably the biggest reason that I quit at the time and went to C# and then FreeBasic.

I have already ported some of Jose's CWindow class and am able to use it to create WinAPI based programs. That's enough for me right now. A basic Windows based program that I use to learn all the other stuff that I need to know; Standard Library; DLL's, Templates, etc...  Once I got all of that under my belt, then I will investigate and learn a suitable cross platform GUI - most likely Qt or wxWidgets.

Hopefully yourself and James will also take part in learning C++. It would be fun.
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Paul Squires
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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 03:20:58 PM »

...and if we can get Jose Roca on board with C++ then that would be cool too.
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Paul Squires
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James Fuller

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 07:32:41 PM »

Paul,
   Why Cmake? From what little experience I had it was a PIA. How do you set the compiler from the command line? (I won't be using Visual Studio Code) It defaults to Visual Studio.
Why not just use make?
James

 
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Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2020, 09:21:16 PM »

I am using CMake because Microsoft is maintaining and supporting a very good VSCode Extension that integrates directly into the CMake program. It seems to be working rather well at the moment. Once I gain more experience with my new environment then I may change, but for now, that is route that I will choose.
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Paul Squires
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Bumblebee

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2020, 04:23:17 AM »

Only thing that stopped me from learning C was its syntax. My early programming efforts included learning assembly language. If it isn't human readable, or doesn't have a simple syntax, I turn up my nose at it. With BASIC, it was easier to learn Python and scripting. VB6 has been my IDE for many years now, but FBE has surpassed it :D

Edit: When I transition to Linux, I'll stick to what works, or learn Gambas.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 04:29:19 AM by Bumblebee »
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James Fuller

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2020, 07:08:03 AM »

Quote
My goal is to learn pure C++. I am hoping to steer clear of BASIC->C or BASIC->C++ type of systems. I want to learn C++, and not yet another Basic language
Paul,
  You misunderstood me I think.
I discovered the VSC++ if used/add to exe else skip by accident only because bc9 puts all the translated c++ code in one file. It does not work if multiple source files are used with #include. It allows me to do the same as FreeBasic and use all my library source code if I want. I don't know how you would do it in any other environment other than a cut and paste? It was just an observation not an advocation.

James
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Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2020, 08:51:21 AM »

Only thing that stopped me from learning C was its syntax. My early programming efforts included learning assembly language. If it isn't human readable, or doesn't have a simple syntax, I turn up my nose at it. With BASIC, it was easier to learn Python and scripting. VB6 has been my IDE for many years now, but FBE has surpassed it :D

I hear you. C has never been overly easy for me either especially in the early years. But in the past few years it has gotten much easier due to having to translate C source to use with PowerBasic or FreeBasic. C++ is quite readable and the syntax is not too bad at all (so far). I was also a huge user of Visual Basic. It was the tool that helped me bridge over from DOS to Windows. In hindsight, it was probably too much hand holding with Visual Basic because it wasn't until I started with PowerBasic and had to learn WinAPI programming di I fully understand and appreciate the need to code at lower levels than just using a visual designer.
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Paul Squires
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Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2020, 08:55:50 AM »

Quote
My goal is to learn pure C++. I am hoping to steer clear of BASIC->C or BASIC->C++ type of systems. I want to learn C++, and not yet another Basic language
Paul,
  You misunderstood me I think.
I discovered the VSC++ if used/add to exe else skip by accident only because bc9 puts all the translated c++ code in one file. It does not work if multiple source files are used with #include. It allows me to do the same as FreeBasic and use all my library source code if I want. I don't know how you would do it in any other environment other than a cut and paste? It was just an observation not an advocation.

James

Ah, yes, now I understand what you mean. I haven't gotten to the stage of that level of optimization yet of ensuring that unreferenced code is not included in the final EXE. By the time I get to that level of interest, I will hopefully have enough knowledge to make an informed decision about whether to stick with VSCode or go with the full Visual Studio environment (I'll probably be retired by then).  :)
 
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Paul Squires
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Josť Roca

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 08:43:01 PM »

I'm afraid that I don't share your enthousiam. C++ bites! It trades safety for speed.

Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 08:48:50 PM »

I'm afraid that I don't share your enthousiam. C++ bites! It trades safety for speed.

:)  Yes, it is certainly less safe than Basic's for sure but it is also much safer than C and has a HUGE amount of resources available. I want to be able use and connect to thousands of libraries without having to always convert/port to Basic first. It will be nice second language for me to know.
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Paul Squires
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Josť Roca

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 09:38:28 PM »

Thousands of libraries full of security bugs. Microsft is so worried about these security bugs, that are very costly for them to fix, that they have begin to experiment with the development of a new language "inspired" (copy, borrow and steal) inspired in Rust. Google for Project Verona.

Paul Squires

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Re: WOW!!
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2020, 09:54:52 PM »

Rust was the first language that I looked at. The whole concept of a borrow checker is very cool as it means that only entity can control the memory of anything at any given time. All those checks are done at compile time so things like null pointers and double frees are extremely hard to do if you follow the Rust rules. It is also the most talked about language for the past 5 years.
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Paul Squires
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