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Author Topic: Microsoft .NET, C#  (Read 667 times)

Paul Squires

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Microsoft .NET, C#
« on: June 06, 2020, 06:05:43 PM »

Learning C++ has been quite "easy" so far. Everything seems to make sense.

The past day or so I've been looking at gui toolkits for C++ just for fun.

Honestly, nothing really jumps out as being spectacular. The cross platform toolkits are okay with each having a multitude of pros and cons. They are pretty bland except for when you look at the toolkits that blend html5 and C++ together such as Electron or Sciter. They are heavy frameworks embedding the chromium browser (although Sciter is only 5mb). They can make great looking ui and are cross platform. Seems like a lot of work though for the derived benefit. That technology probably needs a couple more years to mature. Maybe Google's Flutter will surpass them all (if they don't cancel it like they cancel everything else).

I casually decided to loop back and take a look at .NET again. By far .NET has the largest wealth of toolkits for gui development. I remember a few years ago when I looked at .NET. WinForms had that familiar VB6 feel but I also gave WPF a try. WPF is certainly a different mindset but by all accounts it is more powerful in the long run.

Syncfusion is even giving away free their Essential Studio product line to lone developers and if we use Xamarin then we get cross platform as well.

Now I am once again at a bit of a cross roads. Where do I see my next 10 years of programming? I kind of want to develop for the consumer/business space so desktop/mobile applications would be beneficial. Will cross platform be that important to me? Will I ever move off of Windows? Will mobile and tablets play an important role in anything that I develop?

Did I take a wrong turn right off the start with C++? Maybe it should have been C# that I dove into? That would mean that I would certainly have to give my heart and sole once again to Visual Studio and give up portable development - except for FreeBasic which has continued to serve me well and I have several applications that I still want to develop with FB (but where will FreeBasic be 10 years from now?).

I need to percolate on this over the next few days.

If anyone has any experience or opinions in this area then please speak up. I'd love to hear it.

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Paul Squires
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Paul Squires

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 07:21:15 PM »

I guess another option would be to double down on Freebasic or C++ and build all those cool .net style components in winapi. A lot of work could done I suppose.
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Paul Squires
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raymw

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 09:34:42 PM »

Here's something to help you to decide.


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Paul Squires

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 10:17:20 PM »

Thanks Ray - awesome advice and I see you've had it with you since 2006. Time, tested, and true.
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Paul Squires
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Paul Squires

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2020, 12:28:22 AM »

Lol, the more I look at C#, WinForms and WPF tonight, the more I remember why I didn't like it in the first place. I'd be better off simply modifying WinFBE to output C++ code. Maybe after a good sleep I'll think that .NET is better than my opinion of it right now.
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Paul Squires
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Bumblebee

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2020, 04:59:29 AM »

Is object oriented programming logical?
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James Fuller

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2020, 06:58:16 AM »

Lol, the more I look at C#, WinForms and WPF tonight, the more I remember why I didn't like it in the first place. I'd be better off simply modifying WinFBE to output C++ code. Maybe after a good sleep I'll think that .NET is better than my opinion of it right now.
YES! YES! YES!

James
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raymw

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2020, 07:49:23 AM »

Thanks Ray - awesome advice and I see you've had it with you since 2006. Time, tested, and true.

Much longer than that. Back in the days when I was programming in IBM Fortran IV (G) (punch cards, coding forms, etc - none of this fancy glass teletype stuff), there was an article in 'Computer Weekly' iirc, and I modified it back then- (50 years ago). I'm good at giving advice, not so much at taking it. I think the first thing you need to decide is what you want to achieve. Is it something for your own amusement, or the hope of getting more fame and glory, or financial reward? In many cases, it pays to make a late decision, but not too late. For example if working on a project, and the specification may change, but this is not one of those problems. It's sort of all out there, and you need to pick one, or maybe more.

fwiw, I liked c#, and visual studio. But, over time, Microsoft made it more complicated to distribute code. I looked around for something simpler to use, and was pointed to firefly and free basic. For me, it worked, but I did not like the calls to to the windows api, that stuff being built into C#. Your wfbe is superb for what I need, and it produces compiled exes that I can simply give to folk, without needing the .net nonsense. I got into c++, a few years ago - er much more than 20 years - don't time fly when you are enjoying yourself, -and although my knowledge of the details of Windows operating system is not great, I came to the same conclusion as Jose. Also the VS ide, indeed Microsoft itself,  locks you in to having to sign on to M$, and as I was not developing software full time, I found I had to at least annually reconfigure stuff, re register/whatever, and the help system sucked (but it may be different now).

My 'happiest more recent programming period' was using IBM Smalltalk on OS2. My favourite computer, before then, was the Zenith PC100 (all-in-one). I am very disappointed in how things have developed in the last 30 years, all window dressing with no substance, imho.

It is very refreshing to program PIC micros in assembler or c.

Nothing is new, just stuff getting hyped. I started before mainframes and dumb terminals, now we have the cloud and connected devices. Same thing, just different skin.


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raymw

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2020, 08:39:43 AM »

Is object oriented programming logical?

Not sure if that is a rhetorical question, but ood/oop is very logical, but like everything else, it is a better tool for solving some problems than others.

The purest oop language was Eiffel, but back in the day, Smalltalk was more used. You can use many other languages, but those were specific to ood. C++ jumped on the bandwagon, and that became a right mess, since to make it easy folk would do some in ood, and some in the usual rat nest, c++ like the original B&D electric drill, tries to do everything, and hence fails when you need it most.

ood slices the programming cake in a different way, it just depends what shape you want - e.g. easy to maintain, easy/quick to implement, easy to distribute, multi platform whatever.

Just one of the many useful methodologies, but as always over-hyped by the fan boys who know little else.
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Paul Squires

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2020, 09:21:48 PM »

Is object oriented programming logical?
I think that where OOP gets a bad name is in those tutorials and lessons where everything is a class. They seem to want to create an abstraction for everything. Just because C++ does OOP doesn't mean that OOP should be used for everything. It is great knowing that should you need OOP then C++ has some of the strongest support available for any language. There are languages that force you to use OOP extensively - for example, Java and C#. There are times when procedural programming gets the job done perfectly but there are also many times when procedural with a touch of OOP makes perfect sense.
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Paul Squires
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Paul Squires

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2020, 09:24:55 PM »

fwiw, I liked c#, and visual studio. But, over time, Microsoft made it more complicated to distribute code. I looked around for something simpler to use, and was pointed to firefly and free basic. For me, it worked, but I did not like the calls to to the windows api, that stuff being built into C#. Your wfbe is superb for what I need, and it produces compiled exes that I can simply give to folk, without needing the .net nonsense.
You raise a good point about C# distribution. I have heard the same complaints as well over years. Luckily, I have never had to deal with it myself but I hear a lot of authors having problems packaging their programs and assemblies correctly. There is probably an art and magic to it. Hopefully I'll never have to deal with it. :)
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Paul Squires
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Paul Squires

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2020, 09:25:29 PM »

Lol, the more I look at C#, WinForms and WPF tonight, the more I remember why I didn't like it in the first place. I'd be better off simply modifying WinFBE to output C++ code. Maybe after a good sleep I'll think that .NET is better than my opinion of it right now.
YES! YES! YES!

James

I love your enthusiasm :-)
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Paul Squires
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Bumblebee

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2020, 06:22:00 AM »

I ask about OOP while remembering the transition from VB6 to VB.NET
Excitement, followed by displeasure. There was an emphasis I disliked, nor understood, and it involved object classes.

Joke: If God were an object oriented programmer, it explains why He created the Universe. We just have to figure out the trivial task He created it for.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 06:34:23 AM by Bumblebee »
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raymw

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Re: Microsoft .NET, C#
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2020, 06:34:19 PM »

Bumblebee, I remember your pain. When I was trying to get into ood/oop, about 25 years ago, I struggled for a year or so. I had a couple of great mentors from IBM - who were supplying me with Smalltalk, and OS2. One of them said to me that I would have to unplug my bran, and plug it in sideways. I think I managed the first part.
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